Rev. Cassie Carroll is the first female pastor of a 135-year-old church in San Diego, leading an older congregation. She discusses the challenges of being a younger leader in a traditional setting and how she has focused on building relationships and listening to the particular needs of the church’s neighbors.
Natalia Guzmán shares her experience of making a significant career shift by moving to the United States to work in ministry. As someone who doesn’t speak English as her primary language and is new to the U.S. context, she talks about feeling misunderstood. However, she found that what she initially perceived as a weakness became a strength, making her more relatable and approachable to many of the people she serves.
Despite their different contexts—San Diego and Washington, D.C.—they both highlight the importance of understanding and engaging with their communities in unique ways. We hope this episode reminds you of the ways in which you are uniquely called and qualified to serve in your own context – particularly if you’re a millennial or Gen Z woman in ministry.
Listener Resources:
- If you’re a woman in ministry, we’re here to support you! Explore our curated collection of resources and specialized offerings designed to empower you in your calling. Discover more at transformingengagement.org/womeninministry
- If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, visit transformingengagemeng.org/circles
About our guests:
Rev. Cassie Carroll started as the Head Pastor at Palisades Presbyterian Church in San Diego, California on July 1, 2022. She has been ordained in the PC(USA) since June 18, 2022. Cassie graduated from The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology with a Master’s of Divinity in 2016.
Cassie’s desire is to help people see the Divine in the midst of life—especially when it feels as though the Divine is not present. She believes that a church community encourages one another in their growing faith and in showing God’s love to the neighborhood. She is so excited to start the next chapter of her life here in San Diego with her dog, Emma, and her husband, Andrew. They are happy to have moved back to Andrew’s hometown and be closer to his family. All three of them are looking forward to what is next for them as they make their home at Palisades Presbyterian Church. You can connect with Cassie on Instagram at @cassaroll10 or on Facebook.
Natalia Guzmán was born and raised in a small town in the Caribbean coast of Colombia. She graduated from law school in her hometown in 2018. Shortly after that and pursuing God’s calling, she moved to Colorado to work on a cultural exchange program that would bring her to DC a year later. She joined National Community Church in Washington, DC (NCC) in mid-2019 and started serving with the first impressions team at the Lincoln campus. Later that year she would join the Living Room and learn about the Missions ministry at NCC. Natalia became a Missions Protege in 2020, and officially joined NCC Staff in 2022 as the NoVA Campus Missions Lead. Natalia is very passionate about people and creating relationships, she believes that Jesus’s perfect love is beautifully manifested through community. Her favorite things include outdoor activities, learning languages, and bringing people together.
Episode Transcript
Rose: Welcome to today’s episode of Transforming Engagement, the podcast. Jenni and I are so looking forward to our conversation today with two young women in ministry. Jenni, do you want to introduce Natalia?
Jenni: Yeah, absolutely. I’d love to. So Natalia and I work together at National Community Church, but what I really love is until I was born and raised in a small Caribbean coast town in Columbia, and she graduated from law school there in 2018, and then shortly after that, she really felt God just calling her and she moved to Colorado here in the US to work in a cultural exchange program, which brought her to DC where we are now. And she joined us in mid 2019 and started serving in our missions program. And it’s kind of like an internship is really what it was. But she was with us for two years and we have brought her on full-time since because we just see how much she loves the community. She is director of Global and our nova, which we in Northern Virginia missions, but she really just pastors people really well and we have a lot to learn from her. So I’m really excited that she’s on the call with us.
Rose: I’m so looking forward to hearing more from you. Natalia and I have the honor of introducing a former student from the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology, Reverend Cassie Carroll. Cassie started as a head pastor at Palisades Presbyterian Church in San Diego in July of 2022. She was ordained in the PCUSA in June of 2022, and as I said, she graduated with an MDiv from the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology in 2016. Cassie desires to help people see the divine in the midst of life, especially when it feels as though the divine is not present. She believes that a church community encourages one another in their growing faith and in showing God’s love to the neighborhood. Cassie lives in San Diego with her husband Andrew and her dog Emma. And so Cassie and Natalia, welcome.
Cassie: Thank you. Thank you so much. Good to be here.
Rose: Well, we’re going to start out by just hearing a bit of each one of your stories like Cassie. Tell us how you kind of got to where you are today in the shortened version.
Cassie: Okay. Readers Digest version say I would come from a ministry family. There’s families, when I do confirmation with students, I always invite them to parallel their lives with a biblical character. And I often choose Timothy because his faith was passed down from generation to generation through his grandmother and mother. And I feel very honored and blessed to have that type of legacy in my family. We’re either teachers or pastors and really tried not to get into the family business. This is, I try really hard, but God’s tug to this work is, I mean, it’s hard to say no when that’s where you need to be. And so my journey was long and I am grateful for it. I am thankful for my time at The Seattle School for sure. It really prepped me for engaging a generation that has not been seen. I would say this is a time and a place in the church that was not anticipated.
And so I think the Seattle School really helped me have a creative edge then going to a typical Presbyterian church, I mean seminary, I should say. So I’m grateful for that. And yeah, God’s calling to Palisades Pride specifically has been, it was beautiful and I am exactly where I need to be at this time. I didn’t think I’d be ministering to a predominantly older congregation, but I am, and they’re so cute and I love ’em. And we also have this budding small group of young women with children who are coming to hang out. And so that feels like a Christmas miracle. I think the other piece that’s really big on my heart right now is just making sure our neighbors know that we’re here for them. They don’t need to come on Sunday, but I want them to know that this is their church, even if they’ve never stepped foot in the sanctuary. So yeah, I think that’s kind of where I’m at and I’m sure more will come out as we start chatting.
Rose: Thank you, Cassie. Natalia, how about you?
Natalia: I don’t think it was on my plans at all to come to Christ or to come to ministry. I think I am the result in the answered prayer of my grandma. And I think that she brought us to faith first by coming to faith herself and then setting the example for us. And then I always wanted to be a lawyer. My mom is a lawyer, so I always thought that I just wanted to fight for people. I wanted to somehow participate in the work of justice and bring it to my community. I always thought that some people deserved to know that they had rights and then I could help them access those rights. But then I met the Lord when I was 14 and things started to change. Now I didn’t want it to do justice because it was good, but because it made God happy, because it was what he ultimately wanted it.
So I started to cultivate my faith and I started to learn about missions and missionaries and what I wanted to do. And mid law school, I told my mom, I am dropping out. The Lord’s called me and I’m leaving. And my mom’s like, that’s funny because the Lord hasn’t said anything to me and I’ve been praying. So I started this journey to really look after what he really wanted from me. And the Lord said, Hey, I’ve called you to completion. I don’t, so people might have the calling to lead things midway, but not you. I need you to finish this one. So I finished my race and when it was my time, the law brought me to America. I came here to take a Sabbath from my law school. I finished law school, graduated, was appointed as a lawyer, and I just wanted a break.
And in that break, the Lord said, I have answers for you. And it was there where he told me, this passion that I’ve given you now, I want you to execute it through ministry. There’s no access to people in states of vulnerability like the access the church has. We come from a place of love and of goodness, and we have access that others will never have. So to be in that space with that mentality of justice because it pleases the Lord is just such a blessing. So the Lord opened the doors through National Community Church, through Pastor Jenni and through my community with the people experiencing homelessness in dc. And somehow I’ve been in the ministry work for almost five years now, and it’s been a beautiful journey.
Jenni: Thanks for sharing that. I love how so often we think ministry is inside the church. We have to bring people in so that they can learn about who God is and then we can do what he’s commanded us to do. But most of your work, Natalia, is with missional partners that don’t necessarily exist within the church. So what does it mean to you when we say at NCC, we say that the church needs to exist outside the four walls.
Natalia: Every church has their own calling, and the Lord has definitely gifted those churches with people specifically for that calling. I think in the context that we operate at National Community Church, the Lord just said, I need you outside of these walls. The people that love me will come through those walls, but those who don’t know me are outside. So the way that for us it works is we invest in our community, we care about what’s happening, sort of like what Reverend Cassie said before, this might not be your church, but we are here for you. We are part of your community. So I think we decided to host our community by creating a space where they can feel seen and loved and appreciated and that someone else is working towards getting them restoration in many, many ways.
Rose: Natalia, I’m curious how you do that. Can you give us examples of your work outside the building and how you create that space?
Natalia: Yeah, of course. So what we do is that we basically evaluate what’s happening outside of our church, what’s happening in our community, where are the gaps? Who is doing the work? God is already doing the work outside of our church through multiple people. Some people might not even recognize that they are doing the Lord’s work, but so we identify them and we decide if we want to partner with them, if they align with the vision that God has given us, and then we ask, how can we help? How can we step in the gap with you? How can we get to these communities through you? Because they know the work better than us. We wish that we could know all the things in the entire world, but we don’t. So we trust those who really know what’s happening and we come alongside them in partnership. And that partnership may look like volunteers, like someone to talk to. We’ve become close friends with our partners, not because they’re Christians too, but because they’ve found in us friends who want to do the work with ’em. So we’ve identified those spaces in which we can step in and our church is willing and eager to participate, and that’s how we move forward around those needs in those communities in our church.
Rose: I love that so much, Natalia. I love it. At the Center for Transforming Engagement, we have an offering called Transforming Faith Communities that we do with some congregations. And one of the main things that we talk about is God is already at work in your neighborhood, in your community, how do you go out and discern where God is already working, enjoying that work? So I’d love that so much. Thank you. Cassie, how about you? When you say we want our friends, whether they ever come inside the church or not, to know that this church is for them, how do you guys do that? What does that look like? Well,
Cassie: I mean, Natalia, you’ve already outlined pretty much how I roll. When you walk into a church, when you walk into any context, you listen, discern, act, right? And so that is something I think we talked a lot about that. And I think in one of Dwight Friesen’s classes, but at seminary, but listen, discern act, I don’t know this place. I don’t have the social capital with not only the church, but with the local community as well. And so I don’t know the history, I don’t know the stories. And so to assume that I do would be, well, it’s been done before, but I don’t want to work that way. So for me, one thing I’ve been doing specifically, I’m the first woman to be called as the pastor to this congregation. This congregation has been around for 135 years. And so that’s kind of wild.
And so a big part of the work that I did over the last year and a half has been just being here and just showing up because I recognize that I’m enough change by stepping in as the first woman to be the pastor here. So that’s been a fascinating process and they were definitely ready for me in my particularity because I’m so relational in the work that I do. I’m a big fan of if I don’t get to know you, then I don’t know how to be present for you and work and come alongside you in your personal transformation. So that’s a big piece of that. And then I’m simultaneously pretty much doing the same thing with the neighborhood. Walking the neighborhood and seeing who I bump into our property is just ginormous. And so I walked into this property that’s really sad as well.
It hasn’t been taken care of very well. And we’re at the end of a cul-de-sac. So our neighbors love our property because they walk their dogs here. We have an amphitheater and a tennis court. There is what, but the tennis court has been locked down because it’s not safe, because liabilities and all of these things that you have to think of. So I’ve just been trying to get to know our neighbors, and there’s two mayor types that I’ve met just on our same block and just getting to know them and finding out that they’re into, what they’re into and why they like living here. So it’s this process of getting to know them simultaneously, and we found out that they know our property better than we do. They know when the pipes burst before the staff does. They know when everything is going on and they’re like, oh, well, we just want to continue to love on this property. We don’t want it to get bought by someone else and then have a bunch of high rises or apartment buildings. And so how do I honor our neighbors? Well, they want access to the tennis courts, so how do I do that safely?
We got to raise some money. So that’s been my biggest project this last year has been raising money to open up our tennis courts, line them properly with basketball, tennis, and pickleball, because pickleball is a big thing right now, right? And right. It’s huge. I don’t get it. Apparently. It’s a thing I’m going to learn. It’s going to be great. It’s going to be so fun. It’s going to be awesome. And I just found and got a grant and it was just approved this last week for $30,000. So I was like, I’m ridiculously stoked. We’re going to be able to put outdoor lighting. We’re going to be able to religion everything and take the lock off for the community.
Rose: Congratulations, Cassie.
Cassie: Oh my gosh. I’m like, I’m getting chills just talking about it. It’s been this process. And we did a trunk or treat to raise money, and in the neighborhood we raised about four grand, but this grant is going to take us over the top and there’s energy happening. I don’t know, I could keep talking. I have a lot of words, but yeah, I’m just like, that’s one way is that listening. It took a year to listen to what the neighbors needed or wanted and wanted to be honored. And I’m just hoping they recognize we’re listening and we heard ’em.
Jenni: Yeah, I love that.
Rose: So strikes me the juxtaposition of the two contexts that you guys are in ministry in Washington DC and San Diego, California, but no matter what the context, the posture of eliciting, discerning prayerfully, seeing what the spirit is up to and joining with that work, it just strikes me how opposite your contexts are, but how you’re both kind of saying the same thing. Yeah.
Jenni: And I see also with the two of you, how yes, the context is different, but your choice to step into what neighborliness looks like in your cities, so it’s not cookie cutter, right? Yes, we’re called to very similar things, but how it is manifested for both of you is very, very different. And I think that’s a really great takeaway from this
Cassie: For sure. Absolutely. And I love that Natalia, what you said about finding the partners that are already at work. And that is huge because as a solo pastor, I can’t do everything. And so it’s about finding those people to partner with so that I can say, oh, you’re interested in homelessness. Go talk with New Day Ministries over there so that you can help them help others. I can’t be all things to all people.
Jenni: And maybe this leads to the next question, and this were both of you, but if Cassie, if you could go first, what challenges have you had to work through? I hear you saying you are not only the first female pastor there, but you’re a lone pastor, which is so isolating. I feel it. I am a female pastor. I’m not by myself though, so that’s different. So what does that feed into all of the challenges that you might be facing?
Cassie: So this is my first ordained call, but it’s not my first rodeo, so I’ll say that. But the biggest challenge, one I missed being on a team, I missed the collaborative work of being on a bigger staff. So that’s difficult. And so first and foremost, that isolation piece. I work really hard to make sure that I’m connecting with other pastors in our presbytery as well as, and Presbytery is just our bigger area in San Diego that encompasses all the Presbyterian churches, the peace USA churches in our area. And so I’m really, really intentional about that. The other thing is that I try to keep in contact with my graduating class from seminary. We work really hard to, we have a Facebook group thread thing and we do the texting and all that stuff and trying to be intentional with that. And then the PCUSA actually has a ton of resources as far as different conferences and stuff like that. So I’m really intentional of trying to take advantage of all those resources to make sure I’m not isolated smart. That’s really important to me. I do not want to burn out. That’s my biggest thing is so therefore, I actually am probably one of the most boundaried pastors that this church has ever encountered. So because I don’t want to burn out. So good Cay, they were just huge. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you. The Seattle school for letting me know that I can have them. So that I think that’s that first piece of isolation as a solo pastor. The biggest issue with my congregation that I am intentional about is reminding them that I am their pastor and not their granddaughter. I could
Jenni: See that. I could see that so much younger,
Cassie: And I look young. I’m 40, I’ll say it proud, but I look young. And so that doesn’t necessarily help me in this situation. So I’ll tell you a quick story about it and then I’ll let Natalia go for it. But my first Sunday here, I was so excited. My mentor bought me a collared shirt, like the clerical collar, and I wasn’t planning on being Sunday an everyday colored pastor, but I was excited when I was my first one and woo-hoo. So I wear it, and this very tall, older gentleman comes towering over me. I’m only five five and he’s easily six three. And I’m just looking up at him and he says, well, I don’t know about you and I don’t know about that choker around your neck. And I looked at him and I said, hi, it’s nice to meet you. The great news is you have time to get to know about me. And this is called a clerical caller. And the Presbyterians actually created this in the 18 hundreds. So everyone else stole it from us. And he goes, well, good thing you have that in your back pocket and walked away. Oh
Natalia: Man, wow.
Cassie: And I was like, okay, so I’m going to be wearing my clerical collar every Sunday. And it’s not just a reminder to me about the vows I took at ordination. It is a reminder to my congregation that I’m their pastor and that I am the one that they, not only they am called me here, but God has called me to this place to do good work in the world and definitely push them out of their comfort zone as far as what it means to be a leader in ministry. Wow.
Jenni: There’s definitely some tension there and good and troublesome ways that we have to work through. And so it’s a good reminder for us as we get older that we continue to be flexible in the things that God is teaching us. So thanks
Cassie: For sharing. Absolutely. And that space of being a lifelong learner, right? Yeah, absolutely. And willingness to embrace change.
Jenni: Yeah, it’s not about age. It’s definitely about the willingness to learn. So thanks for reminding us about that. Natalia, would you like to share with us some of the challenges that you had? I know you’ve got a lot there. Of course.
Natalia: I have a lot of challenges everyone. I am from Columbia. So first of all, I’m a foreigner, and I just moved here six years ago and I am 27. And when I started to be an intern, I was around 23. So let’s just say that it was a path. But I think my biggest challenge, I would love to say that people were underestimating me because of my youth, but true, I think that I was not recognizing that I was young enough and that I was recognizing that I needed to learn way more from those that were in the moment, my peers, but also just my supervisors. I think at times I thought that I was ahead of myself in certain things. I thought that because I had a law school in my back pocket and I am a foreigner. I already know how to do life, then I can go ahead and do it.
But I was in a completely different context. I was with completely different people in a completely new language and truth be told, I just needed to hear and to listen and to be humble by God. And he humbled me, guys. He did the work. The Lord did not hold back by humbling me. And I learned a great time from that experience just because I was humble with so much love and so much care and so much patience. I think Pastor Jenni has been not only my supervisor at times, but also just a life mentor and a great friend who pastored me with so much love and teaching me. And she saw the best in me when I couldn’t see it, just like God does very pastor of her. And I think that helped me to envision just something bigger that I could do with my life and with my skillsets. So I think just moving from underestimating myself and my youth to receiving and to listening to being willing to learn. I think that’s one of the biggest challenge I’ve had. The other one is that I speak Spanish as a native language, and I am I the only Latina in our staff, pastor Jenni? I think so.
Jenni: You are the only one that is not born in the US. Yes.
Natalia: Yeah. Not born in the US Hispanic that just moved here six years ago. And I think that itself just made me feel a certain way, even if others didn’t feel that way. And I’m not aware of that because I haven’t asked anyone, Hey, do you see me little because I’m from abroad? But I felt that way. I felt that way when I had to speak in public. I felt that way when I had to lead a meeting. I would get caught up in my own words and some people would not understand me, which is absolutely natural. And I think that overall was back in, it was hurting me internally as I was trying to overcome everything externally. So I just felt like I didn’t have enough authority or enough power to speak over people or to pray for them or to walk alongside them.
But I think that made me even more accessible and more relatable to other people. And I think it brought down some walls that some people have with church people and with others. So I think that the Lord really did use my weakness and what I thought was my weakness as a great just weapon of love and of kindness and of welcoming others, which I think it was very rare the first time that someone interviewed me for a podcast, I was so embarrassed. I did not want it to hear myself until today. I still struggle with hearing myself after I speak publicly.
But I think after that, when people came to me and that was Pastor Jenni, by the way, you guys couldn’t see that, but she was making a reaction to that moment. Yeah, I think I just learned that God created me in a certain way because he was going to use that for certain people and for certain specific moments. So yeah, I think those two challenges are huge. And the last one, just a bonus, and I’ll leave it very shortly because I can’t go on that one for maybe 20 years. I am an immigrant and I had to go through a huge migration process, legal process to be in the United States like Pastor Jenni shared. I came here in a cultural exchange. So I’ve been legal my entire time in the US and with my paperwork, everything’s worked well, but it’s been a journey of suffering and tears. And people sometimes ask me, how did you do it? And I’m like, I can’t tell you. You have to be Natalia and know the people I know and be loved by the people that love me in order to survive those five, almost six years that I still am on. By the way, we’re about to go to Columbia to renew my visa. So it goes again every six months. But my goodness, the immigration process in the legal process that takes to be in the United States is massive. And if it wasn’t because I feel called here, I would’ve dropped it. But the Lord said, I want you here for a time as this.
Jenni: What’s incredible about all that you just shared, Natalia, is those are very internal thoughts because as someone that was with you when you were processing through all those things, none of us would’ve thought, never have. We thought you were little, never thought had. We thought that you were less. In fact, because you are multilingual, you already suppressed so many of us, you can communicate and your English is phenomenal. And so it’s funny how we see ourselves and how the enemy can speak lies into us to take us out of ministry, to take us out of our calling. And I mean, I can say I can, as someone who has watched you in your journey, you are incredible and you are a giant. You’re spiritual giant, you say, yeah, you’re 27. No one would ever know because of the wisdom that you hold. And so I hope you take more space as you grow into yourself and just hear God’s calling out to you and that. So you’re incredible.
Natalia: Thank you, pastor Jenni. She definitely was a witness of these things, and she did speak this life on me every single time. I was like, oh, my accent, my Spanish, my English, and she was that truth to myself. So thank you for that.
Rose: Something that I think is so, so important that I’m just hearing is for, I mean probably for anyone in ministry, but right now we’re talking about women in ministry and some of the unique things that women experience in the ministry. Cassie, the first woman in a hundred years to be a pastor. I mean, that is a huge thing, right? It’s huge. Natalia, the intersection of being not only a woman, but an immigrant with English is not even your first language, the challenges that would bring up. But what I hear is that I think Jenni just said this, pastor Jenni, about the enemy would like to wreak havoc with us that we’re not enough. We aren’t enough. I mean, that’s the old story with Eve anyway. You’re not enough or you’re too much, and so you got to belittle or whatever. And so I’m just so struck by both of your, first of all, love for the Lord and obedience to what the invitation of the spirit to your lives. I’m so struck by your yesses, even through the hard things, the challenges, and I think that’s where we build our muscles because nobody ever promised us that there wouldn’t be suffering. Nobody. It’s like, give your life to Jesus. And all your days are wonderful. Yes, in one way, but that does not mean we won’t pick up a cross and experience small little deaths in this life. And so what I hear both of you is that there’s been crosses to bear. And the thing that I’ve heard is you both had people, Natalia, you talked about Pastor Jenni walking with you, bearing witness, Cassie, you talked about your mentor. So important to have people in our lives that see what we’re walking through, walk with us, bear witness to and encourage when we feel like, yeah, we’re lost. So I just want to just say, I’m so impressed with both of you.
Cassie: Agreed, thank you. It’s wild because there’s so many things they don’t teach you in seminary. And one of them that I realized is that I ask people how they’re doing on their walk with God all the time. How are you doing? What’s going on in your faith? How can I pray for you? I never get asked that question, right? Since I’ve become a pastor, and there’s always the assumption that I’m fine. So it’s that combination of not being asked and the assumption that I’m fine and that my faith is great. And so the work that I have to do to make sure that I am being asked that question.
And so I’ve actually started spiritual direction this year. Yes. So good. Just because I’m like, Hey, I need to make sure someone’s asking me that question and I’m having the church pay for it because out of my church expenses, because that is something that’s going to benefit the church. And so it’s this boundary of like, I’m not paying that out of my own pocket. That’s something that the church needs to give back to me because I’m doing so much back for them. And it’s an interesting, at first I felt weird about it, but then I was like, no. Yeah.
Rose: The research that we have done at the Center since 2017, we’ve won several Lilly grants that have afforded us to be able to research wellbeing in clergy. That’s why we birthed the Center that has all of our non-degree offerings, Cassie. But what the research has shown for clergy wellbeing is there’s three strains of resilience. So what we’ve noticed, we know everyone’s going to go through suffering. I mean it just until the eschaton, this is our path. So how do pastors care for their souls? And the three streams of resilience that we have found has been people, and we would say people, people, people, practices and purpose. Who are the people? And we often say, as a pastor, talk to your board, whoever makes financial decisions, if you need therapy, if you could have a spiritual director or a coach, someone you can tell the truth to with what’s going on with your soul, and you’re not going to lose your job because you told them, right? Yes.
Cassie: Sorry. I heard it said a long time ago that there’s a difference when you’re in ministry. There’s a difference between confidants and allies when you’re in the church. Even the nicest person that you have the best relationship with in the congregation who is a member, they are not a confidant. They’re an ally. We have the same hope and the same goals, but they are not loyal to me. They are loyal to the church. And so what does it mean to have people who are loyal to me in my life?
Jenni: So good.
Rose: I think the other thing I would just say about that, and Natalia, I want to hear your experience with some of this too. Who are the people that, and you already said Pastor Jenni is with you bearing witness, she’s pastoring you. But one of the things that I think about often is the most common metaphor we use for the church is family. I don’t know about you guys, but oh, we’re the family of God, or, oh, you belong to the family. I know denominations will even say that about their denomination. You belong to the family, but Cassie, you will appreciate this. So Dan Allender is one of the founders of the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. And I remember years ago him talking to a group of pastors saying, you’ll always be playing a role always, no matter. I don’t care what you think. Everybody that comes to your church is there. They’ve come out of a family and they’re going to be experiencing a family, and they are going to project a lot of stuff on you, and you are going to do it back to them because we’re human beings. But it’s so interesting to think about the family system and how churches often are. So to your point, I learned the very hard way about having confidants within the church. It didn’t go well for me. Natalia, how about you? How do you care for your soul? What are ways? Yeah,
Natalia: Yeah, absolutely. I think, and just to piggyback on what you guys were talking about, boundaries is such a strong word, and I think that we don’t even reinforce them enough as church workers, as ministries, as pastors. That’s definitely, and I think it’s the misconception. Of course, we would leave the 99 and go for the one, right? That’s what Jesus did. But at the same time, I think that has been used against us and that has been used against our communities in a way that we have no boundaries and we are not practicing the ways of Jesus when we do that. The Lord was clear, you oath to love yourself. You oath to love the other. So you can love yourself in a good way too. It’s such a balance. And I think I am a two in Enneagram. I don’t know if anyone believes in the Enneagram
Rose: Oh yes.
Natalia: Sometimes it’s a cult, but not here. We just use it for good instruction. A tool on Ngram. It’s a tool. It’s a tool, exactly. I’m a two on the Enneagram, and I am always the last thing on my list of priorities. Yes. And usually that happens when I am not in a healthy state. And when I become a little healthier, when I start to become a little bit more aware of my emotions and what’s happening around me, that’s when I start to prioritize self-care and time for myself and time for my people. And I think when you work for a church and when you are part of a church community, that becomes your life. It becomes your people, it becomes your workplace, it becomes your enjoyment. Everything is around that church community. And if you guys are a little bit like me, you invest your soul and life into these people, everything that happens with them happens to you. And I think that when we go to that length, we don’t put boundaries in place. And I think for me, learning and how to take care of myself has represented that if I’m not well, then I’m not going to pour something that it’s going to last forever. We’ve been reflecting on the books The Garden Within, and we have been learning
Jenni: The one by Dr. Anita Phillips,
Natalia: The one by Dr. Anita Phillips, which by the way, absolutely genius book. But basically, if we are pouring out of something that is not rooted of something, that it’s not growing inside, then it’s not going to produce anything else. You will plant in others what is growing inside of you. And if it’s not growing in you, that is not going to grow in others. And then we wonder, well, why is our church not growing? Why are people not committing? Why are they not stepping into leadership or discipleship? Well, I don’t know what we’re pouring into them, but it’s not reflecting what’s inside. So I think it has become a matter of putting boundaries that are healthy, and I make sure that they are healthy by communicating them with my people. I run them by my people. I was like, Hey, I’m thinking about putting this new boundary. What do you think about it? Do you think that’s doable? Do you think that works? And just double checking that I trust myself, but I also trust my people, and that’s why I run it by them and know that they’ll help me stay on track.
Jenni: I feel like we could have this conversation for days and days and days. And so man, I really enjoy listening to the wisdom that both of you are holding. I have one more question for you, though. Obviously you are called, we wouldn’t be doing ministry if you weren’t called and you wouldn’t be still doing it if you didn’t enjoy it. But as we heard, we have boundaries. What in your life do you have people that you feel really know you and know the state of your soul so that you can actually continue in the ministry that God has called you to? Yeah, Cassie, let’s start with you.
Cassie: Therapy. Therapy. Therapy. Therapy. Therapy.
Jenni: Amen, amen, amen! So I’m hearing you say therapy.
Cassie: A little bit. In my therapy journey specifically, I’m at the place where we’re kind of at a needed situation. Good. So I’m grateful for that, but knowing that my therapist is a phone call away is key, especially because I’m also a two on the Enneagram, my friend. And so we are a hot mess and adorable. So that’s just true. And so finding those people that it took a minute to get over therapy and like, oh, I’m giving this person money, but it was also this thing of, no, I need to know as a two that person that this is my time. That this is not anyone else’s time but mine and this person’s going to challenge me and encourage me. But so therapy. My other thing is that I do have, I call them my heart people, my people that I know, I can call them and they will be available and know my heart. They know where my calling has stemmed from. I also, my partner, my husband, he is the best and I’m a big fan. So he is a great advocate. Even just coming on this podcast, he was like, well, do you have talking points? Did you think through the question? He’s making sure that I’m doing my work of being in the public eye. And so I do have those people, but I’m also choosing to step into spiritual direction. And it’s hard to find a spiritual director. And so there are resources out there, but it’s difficult. So if you’re looking for a spiritual director, contact The Seattle School contact Transforming Engagement. They have resources to help you find someone.
Jenni: That’s really, really good. How about you, Natalia.
Natalia: Yeah, I would say that community has been the most important piece in my life. And especially when coming to ministry, I think I had to learn that everyone could be my friend and I could be a friend to them, but at the same time, I needed to keep my circle close and I needed to learn who were those who were going to be with me when I was doing well or not doing well. And I think finding the people that have the courage to love you and tell you you’re not doing well, and this is the time for you to care for yourself has been really important. And see that as love when people call me out, when people will pull me inside, when people would come to me and say, Hey, you’re not caring for yourself, then I think I understood that that was a big way to loving me.
It’s not easy to tell a friend, you’re doing not well. And I think when I identify those people in my life, I just kept them with me. And these are people that would love me in ministry, not in ministry that would pray over me, but also know when I don’t need a prayer, when I just need someone to listen to me, someone to just stick me out for a walk or for lunch and be by my side no matter what. So I think understanding who your friends are, who your community are. And lastly, I’ll just brag really quick about the team that I have. I wish I could tell you work at a terrible place and that I need to look for things outside. But honestly, my team, goodness, the Lord really, really shines through. My team goes along, and that is a safe place for me and a safe place I know is a little bit triggering, but truly, if I were to confess a sin, if I were to confess where, a place where I need people to walk with me, this is what I would do it. I trust my people. I trust their prayers, and I trust their love for me.
Rose: That’s awesome. That’s so good. Jenni, what are you on the Enneagram?
Jenni: I’m a three. I have been called a three with some eight energy, which I just think,
Natalia: Yes, agreed.
Jenni: So this Natalia is saying it, but here’s the thing. I just think that women get thrown into an 8 category when they’re going to say things that they’re really thinking. And so here I am.
Natalia: I am have also been called an 8, by the way. And it’s because
Jenni: The two are related to
Natalia: The eight. The twos are an eight. Yeah.
Jenni: How about you Rose?
Rose: I thought for a long time I thought I was a two you guys, but honestly, I realized I listened to some podcasts of eights talking about being an eight, and I went, oh, I’m totally an eight. I think I was socialized. I totally was socialized as a two. I am totally an eight.
Jenni: Most women are
Rose: Right, right, right, right. Yeah. I mean Italian, Mexican, Roman Catholic growing up. I mean, I kind of culturally even was socialized as a two. So anyway. But you guys, this is so great. Natalia, Cassie,
Jenni: So fun.
Rose: Thank you for joining us, honestly. This is really, really fun you guys. Thank you for having, so we’re going to leave it here and just say thank you so much and yeah,
Cassie: This was wonderful. Thank you for having us.
Natalia: Thank you for having us.
