Women in Ministry – New season with Dr. Rose Madrid Swetman and Jenni Wong Clayville

by Jul 16, 2024Transforming Engagement: the Podcast

 

Welcome to a new season of Transforming Engagement: the Podcast – Women in Ministry!

Each season, we focus our conversations on a single topic and take a deep dive into learning its complexities by inviting perspectives from diverse backgrounds and expertise. For the next few episodes, we’re talking about women in ministry. 

In this series, we will explore women in ministry with a diverse group of women leaders.

We will discuss the path to ministry, discern the way forward, challenges and triumphs, mental health, gender and leadership, and much more. 

We hope you’ll find these conversations inspiring and practical—whether you are a woman in ministry, a leader from any marginalized background, or if you’re passionate about empowering all of God’s people to lead and serve in the ministry they feel called to.

In this first episode, you’ll get to know our co-hosts, Dr. Rose Madrid Swetman and Jenni Wong Clayville, who are both experienced ministry leaders, advisers, and champions for their fellow women in the field of ministry. We can’t wait to get started!

Listener resources:

About This Season’s Hosts:

Jenni Wong Clayville was born and raised in Seattle, Washington. She is wife to Brian and boy-mom to Chance & Paxton. Jenni is an unpretentious foodie, more pretentious coffee lover, mediocre CrossFitter, and a self-proclaimed comedienne.

Her educational background is in Psychology (Social and Behavioral Sciences) and Theology, and how they connect holistically. Jenni has been in full-time ministry since 2001, and has a wide variety of ministry experience in positions such as Worship Pastor to First Impressions to Executive Pastor. Jenni currently serves at National Community Church as the Weekend Experience Pastor and is part of the teaching team at the Northern Virginia campus.

In her spare time, you can find Jenni reading in her favorite chair at home, sitting in a soccer field cheering on her sons, scrolling through social media, avoiding shopping malls, finding the funny in just about anything and avoiding clowns. Mostly the scary ones. Which are all of them.

Rose Madrid Swetman, DMin, is the Associate Director of the Center for Transforming Engagement. She brings a lifetime of ministry experience, having co-founded the Practicing Church in Shoreline, WA and served as the Regional Leader of the Northwest Vineyard USA. She continues to teach and preach and is passionate about raising women leaders in church ministry.

Rose has a specific passion for resilience work based on her own story of how ministry impacted her health. In her role as Associate Director, she oversees all of the resilience initiatives.

Rose obtained her Doctorate of Ministry from Bakke Graduate University, focusing on transformational leadership for the global city.

She and her husband Rich have a blended family of 8 children and over 25 grandchildren.

Episode Transcript

Rose: Hi, Jenni, welcome to Transforming Engagement: the Podcast.

Jenni: Yes. Hi Rose. Very, very excited and privileged to be here. This is going to be fun. Yeah.

Rose: I’m so grateful that you said yes. So welcome to the season, and as we open today, you and I are just going to talk about our hopes and what we’re looking forward to. But first, Jenni, I would love to start with just hearing a bit about your story, as much as you want to tell us about your story and how you got to where you are today.

Jenni: Yeah, so I was born and raised in Seattle, Washington to immigrant parents that are from Hong Kong. And so I’m the oldest of three girls. English is my second language. I went to Pre-K only knowing Cantonese, which makes it very interesting since I live in the United States of America. So I remember that being a tension. I don’t remember a lot of it. I remember at one point having to use a bathroom and not knowing how to communicate that. Don’t worry. I know English now, so we’re good.

Rose: Oh wow. Yes.

Jenni: Yes. So from there, grew up in Seattle, lived in Bellevue, this is before Microsoft, all of that stuff. And a lot of it growing up in an immigrant church, my mom helped start a sister’s church, a sister church for the church that we were at in Renton, which was a different area. And they didn’t have a youth program for us at the time. And so what she ended up doing was not just her, but that whole church kind of let all of the youth go to the church around the corner that had an incredible youth program. And so that was my first experience in I think a non-denominational, White led church. And I only say that because the context is very different because the culture is different. And so it went from a very collaborative community mindset to a bit more of a individualistic mindset, which was not present in the Chinese church as much, just because that’s, again, culture. And so that was when I first realized I could have a personal relationship with Jesus, and I just took off from there. And I think it started, at like, I don’t know, maybe freshman year at that point. So yeah, it was pretty great. I remember, so growing up, I just remember looking at how God has called me. I really felt called at the time. I just didn’t know how it would look because at that time I only saw men in ministry, men in leadership. I didn’t have any context for female pastors, much less a Chinese American female in the White church. So yeah, I started kind of digging into that a little bit. And I remember when I was 15, my mom asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. And again, because I had no context, I just told her I wanted to be a pastor’s wife. Well, fast forward, I actually moved to Portland, Oregon in 2000, and that’s where I met Brian, my husband. We have been married for 23 years now. We have two sons, Chance and Paxton. Just a boy mom living my best lif. Chance is 18 and Paxton is almost 16 as we speak. And so it’s been very, very fun. I love them. They’re so great. And I try to help make sure that they don’t live like this pastor’s kid lifestyle. We want them to have some autonomy in their faith. And so long story short, I became, I became a pastor and it was kind of accidental. I started first doing ministry as a worship leader, and then the church that I was at in Portland created a position for me to build that ministry. And so it kind of like steamrolled. I was in worship for 17 years at a couple of different churches, and then I stepped into an executive pastorship and a worship pastor together as we do when we do church plants, because you’re kind of doing everything. So I was partnering with another pastor who was leading, and then now I work at a national community church in the Washington DC area. And I am one of the pastors there. I help oversee one of the campuses in the Northern Virginia area. And I’m part of the teaching team. My title is technically Weekend Experience Pastor, but as we all know, titles don’t really mean anything. I oversee all the departments that make church happen, and they’re all really amazing people. It’s really easy to do ministry when the people that you work with are better than you are. And so my job very much is how do I resource my team and how do I teach in a level of integrity and don’t put my own interpretation on it, but really push people toward understanding interpretation of scripture on their own. And so some of my academic background is in psychology and theology. So my undergrad work was in social behavioral sciences, and my first master’s was in psychology. And I’m continuing my grad work almost done. I have one more quarter of getting my Master’s in Theology, and then I’ll have some sort of plans, I guess for a doctorate after that. But my whole goal is not even education as much as I just really enjoy learning. And some people are just addicted to that. And that’s pretty much me in a nutshell. So yeah, thanks for asking. That’s a lot. But there you can help. 

Rose: No, I love it. I love it so much. I love your story. It’s interesting as far as education goes, because I started pastoring in the late 80s. I’m old Jenni, so we have generations here, right? Because I’m kind of old, but in 19… in 2006, I started a doctoral program and I was 50 at the time, but it was, I love learning. So I hear you. I was just resonating with what you said, because I love learning. And honestly, by the time I started that program, when I got my book reading list, I had already read a third of those books because which was why I even entered the program because I loved it so much. So I hear that. Where did you do your degree?

Jenni: Which one?

Rose: I’m sorry. The theology or psychology Degree?

Jenni: Psychology was George Fox University in Oregon. And then this one, now I’m in Fuller Theological Seminary, which it’s so funny because you say I’ve already read a lot of the books that are the required reading because I was doing it on my own. And I’ll tell you, you probably feel this too, going back to school when you’re older is it’s so different. I think my brain is ready to really receive it and just apply it. Whereas when I was younger, I think I just was maybe done with school. I’d done so many years of school, not that I wasn’t interested, but I just didn’t retain it as well as I do now. There’s a new appreciation for sure.

Rose: Absolutely. Absolutely. It was interesting when I read your bio about having a background in psychology and theology when our center is housed in the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology.

Jenni: I love it so much.

Rose: Yeah. And it’s interesting. How have you seen how to connect holistically psychology and theology? Because that’s a lot of the work we do at the Center.

Jenni: In my experience, and it’s just obviously just one lens. But as a pastor for over two decades, I use all the things that I’ve learned in psychology every single day, whether it is just sitting with someone who’s grieving or sitting in celebration with someone or listening to my team members as they’re processing through what they need to do, or really kind of hearing what their dreams are, what needs to be released in them, understanding what questions you need to ask to, it’s not about us, right? It’s not about me as the pastor, but how does a person in front of me need to be seen or heard so that they can live their fullest called life that God has put them on this earth for? And so I see this holistic part of it. Of course, it includes how we are taking care of ourselves physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. All of those things are very connected. And so when some part of that cog is off, it just kind of throws everything off. And I think for a long time, older context of church has been, psychology is not important. It’s separate. And so very recently, there’s more and more information and more research in it of how it really affects our spiritual understanding of our triune God. And so I think it’s so important. I use it every day. Yeah, yeah. I’m sure you do too, Rose.

Rose: Yes, yes. Every day. So no, I think for several reasons, the combination and just what you said, we are holistic beings. And so when one part is off, it throws much of it off. So yes, I do use it every day, and I find the social sciences informing faith super important. And of course there’s limits on either side of that, but it’s super important. I think the thing that if I saw a negative in it, it would be pastors that don’t have that training, that do not understand their limits when it comes to psychology. And so learning how to refer out when you’ve really passed your limits,

Jenni: That is definitely something that I’ve been grappling with myself because I do have more education and more understanding of how to do it. And I still don’t feel like I have enough to give. I refer out all the time. But I do feel like pastors don’t. I see pastors doing so much damage when, and I say this probably because as a woman, I just see male pastors, not meaning to, but for the sake of, I think this is what I see the most is for the sake of holding that marriage covenant, sending women back into dangerous situations and abusive situations. And I think for us, understanding, not only understanding that we are not resourced enough, I would say seminary, going to seminary prior to, I don’t know, even the last 10 years, means that you’re not ready to do counseling. I have a hard time even saying pastoral counseling because normal people don’t understand the difference between counseling and therapy. And very often you need the pastor to help usher you through spiritual formation. We are not the end-all as a pastor. I’m not the end-all. I should not be who saves you. It should be Jesus. But we need also the brain work of a therapist that knows all these things that can help you move on in that area. And you need both. You don’t need just one or both or the other. You need both. So I totally agree, Rose. That’s exactly what we need.

Rose: Yeah, I think you’re right. I think for a while, and in some areas of the church, it is still a, what is the word I’m looking for? The word I’m looking for stigma to go to counseling where, I mean, I think it’s, especially with younger people, it’s more and more accepted. And so I’m hoping even through the course of our conversations for women in ministry, we can sort of help break that stigma. And of course, you want to find a therapist that you relate to that is good and all of that. So that is for later, we’re going to be talking about that with some of our guests. But Jenni, I love your story. It sounds to me like when you were 15, you kind of wanted to marry a pastor because that was in your mind: ministry, right? But then along your life you just kind of kept saying yes to invitations, and here you are. Would you say that’s true?

Jenni: Absolutely true. And I think, so. My husband is not a pastor. He sells medical equipment. With that said, he is an incredible pastor at heart. He shepherds men. He does, he works in a men’s group or not works. He is in a men’s group and he leads it. And he’s just… he’s so good at what he does. He could very easily be a pastor, but that’s not what he feels called to do. He just wants to be a part of this group, kind of a thing, right? But I would say for me, I was very fortunate that there were allies along the way that helped open the doors for me. Now, I’m not saying that my journey was easy. I definitely, as you probably could relate, Rose, like we’re getting there. We’re not there yet. We are trailblazing away behind the women that trailblazed for us and we’re trailblazing for the women behind us. So there’s definitely been times where I’ve not been invited to the table or I’ve been invited to the table as a quota, but not really invited into the conversation. I fortunately don’t feel as much in that space anymore, and I’m very, very grateful. But I in no way think that we’ve arrived. There are women that I talk to regularly that are really kind of stuck in a place where they feel called and no one will listen to them or give them resources to do the things that God has asked them to do, called them to do. And so I am not, obviously I’ve come from an egalitarian church or I wouldn’t be a pastor, but I don’t really think that that’s the problem. I don’t think if it’s a complementarian or egalitarian issue. I just do think that it comes down to what is the Imago Dei, what is the image of God in all of this? And we need men and women working together,

Rose: Together. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, we won’t even get started there, but I bet we could go, we could preach a sermon right now. We could be shouting it together, mutuality. It doesn’t have to be this or this, it should be this. Yes, yes,

Jenni: Yes. I would say also that I think for so long, women have thought, I have a seat, and there’s only one seat. I think if there’s anything that we can do, we can pull each other up. There’s more room than we think around that table. So if women hear anything at all here, there’s space for all of us and we should be making more space for each other just because that is again, Imago Dei. How can we be better with that?

Rose: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, listen, I think I am thrilled. We have some great guests coming, and we’re going to be talking with Brenda Salter McNeil with Tara Beth Leach, with Faith Eury Cho, Jeanette Salguero, Mary Kathyn Nader, a couple of young female pastors that you and I are. I think that’s going to be our last one where we have two young women, I think in their late twenties, early thirties, and Inés Velásquez-McBryde. So what are you hoping for out of this series?

Jenni: What I’m seeing on this list is we have women that are actually leading the way. There’s women that are the actual sole lead pastor. There’s women that are co-pastor with their husbands. There are women that are in very diverse areas, and their community is very diverse. We have doctors, we have scholars, we have academics. We have people that are in the mission field. I love just the diversity of the women that are coming in, and I have so much to learn. I don’t know about you, Rose. I can’t wait to hear what these women have to offer because I know I’m far from being, I have not arrived, and I have so much to learn. The older I get, the less I feel. I know. So I’m ready for this.

Rose: Absolutely. I feel the same way. Well, listen, thank you so much for this time, and I just look forward to all the great conversations we’re going to have.

Jenni: Me too, Rose. This is going to be a great time.